subscribe

subscribe

[Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)]

Re: subscribe

[Eric Wong]

mlmmj uses plus-addressing: kcar-public+subscribe@bogomips.org

Also, I'm considering writing something which downloads NNTP
messages(*) and uploads to IMAP servers to reduce SMTP
subscribers on my mailing lists; similar to how the feed2imap
RubyGem works for RSS/Atom feeds.


Would you consider using that? (or writing something like that
yourself? :)

(*) nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.lang.ruby.kcar
    I also have a TODO item for public-inbox to add NNTP COMPRESS
    support to reduce bandwidth.

Re: subscribe

[Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)]

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> mlmmj uses plus-addressing: kcar-public+subscribe@bogomips.org

Ohh, sorry about that. I spent a few seconds and cannot find
how to subscribe it so I decided to just try it. Mentioning this
in the README would be nice. (or I guess you might want to
reduce the subscribers therefore not mentioning it? :P)

> Also, I'm considering writing something which downloads NNTP
> messages(*) and uploads to IMAP servers to reduce SMTP
> subscribers on my mailing lists; similar to how the feed2imap
> RubyGem works for RSS/Atom feeds.
>
>
> Would you consider using that? (or writing something like that
> yourself? :)

Sorry that I don't really understand how this works. For myself,
as long as there's an easy way to subscribe to the mailing list,
whatever should work for me.

I really hope I would have time to work on making plaintext
world more accessible and convenient to use. Unfortunately
the rich world is moving too fast and it's hard to catch up
with merely some free time... So I would try to follow up,
but probably can't spend too much time writing it unless
fortunately it's aligning to my day-to-day works.

Cheers,

[PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Eric Wong]

"Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)" <godfat@godfat.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> > mlmmj uses plus-addressing: kcar-public+subscribe@bogomips.org
> 
> Ohh, sorry about that. I spent a few seconds and cannot find
> how to subscribe it so I decided to just try it. Mentioning this
> in the README would be nice. (or I guess you might want to
> reduce the subscribers therefore not mentioning it? :P)

Yeah, I didn't really want it; but I suppose it's better
than "subscribe" messages coming to the list.  Patch below.

> > Also, I'm considering writing something which downloads NNTP
> > messages(*) and uploads to IMAP servers to reduce SMTP
> > subscribers on my mailing lists; similar to how the feed2imap
> > RubyGem works for RSS/Atom feeds.
> >
> >
> > Would you consider using that? (or writing something like that
> > yourself? :)
> 
> Sorry that I don't really understand how this works. For myself,
> as long as there's an easy way to subscribe to the mailing list,
> whatever should work for me.

I guess another question is: do you use IMAP to read mail
or webmail (or something else, POP3)?

With nntp2imap, it might be something like:

==> ~/.nntp2imap/rc.yml <=
---
groups:
  - name: kcar
    source: nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.lang.ruby.kcar
    destination: imaps://username@yourserver.example.com/INBOX.kcar
  ...

That way, I would have no information about who reads the list
(especially if you use something like Tor to anonymize yourself)

Another option might be Atom feeds; but Message-ID headers
tend to get lost when people want to reply...

For a sysadmin, the beauty of NNTP is there's no per-client
state stored on the server itself.  It's all in the client.
Same for Atom feeds.

I might also work on a POP3 server; but that also means
my server still needs to track (anonymous) accounts to
avoid delivering duplicate messages; so it's about the
same storage overhead as SMTP delivery.  The nice thing
about POP3 (AFAIK) is all the major webmail providers
provide a POP3 import support.  I don't know of any which
provide NNTP import support.

And of course, 3rd parties may also run the POP3 server
as a service to gateway any NNTP server.

> I really hope I would have time to work on making plaintext
> world more accessible and convenient to use. Unfortunately
> the rich world is moving too fast and it's hard to catch up
> with merely some free time... So I would try to follow up,
> but probably can't spend too much time writing it unless
> fortunately it's aligning to my day-to-day works.

No worries.

--------8<---------
Subject: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

But of course, add a disclaimers :>
---
 README | 12 ++++++++++--
 1 file changed, 10 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/README b/README
index c735a76..b1a577d 100644
--- a/README
+++ b/README
@@ -86,6 +86,14 @@ All feedback (bug reports, user/development discussion, patches, pull
 requests) go to the public mailing list: mailto:kcar-public@bogomips.org
 All mail is archived publically at: https://bogomips.org/kcar-public/
 and nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.lang.ruby.kcar
-Anonymous requests will always be welcome.
-No subscription is necessary to post to the mailing list.
+
+Anonymous posts will always be welcome.
+
+No subscription is necessary to post to the mailing list;
+but you may subscribe by sending a plain-text mail to:
+
+	mailto:kcar-public+subscribe@bogomips.org
+
+Keep in mind we suck at delivering email, so using NNTP or
+Atom feeds might be a better bet.
 Please remember to Cc: all recipients as subscription is optional.
-- 
EW

Re: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> I guess another question is: do you use IMAP to read mail
> or webmail (or something else, POP3)?

Oh, now I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately
I am currently stuck with GMail, using the web interface.
I could setup POP3 to receive emails into my inbox (I did so
for some other accounts), but I guess I could not setup IMAP
for GMail.

> With nntp2imap, it might be something like:
>
> ==> ~/.nntp2imap/rc.yml <=
> ---
> groups:
>   - name: kcar
>     source: nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.lang.ruby.kcar
>     destination: imaps://username@yourserver.example.com/INBOX.kcar
>   ...
>
> That way, I would have no information about who reads the list
> (especially if you use something like Tor to anonymize yourself)
>
> Another option might be Atom feeds; but Message-ID headers
> tend to get lost when people want to reply...
>
> For a sysadmin, the beauty of NNTP is there's no per-client
> state stored on the server itself.  It's all in the client.
> Same for Atom feeds.

I could setup/run some daemons on my server, as long as
the mails could eventually deliver to my inbox so that my
regular workflow would stay the same. I don't know what
could do that though.

Cheers,

Re: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Eric Wong]

"Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)" <godfat@godfat.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> > I guess another question is: do you use IMAP to read mail
> > or webmail (or something else, POP3)?
> 
> Oh, now I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately
> I am currently stuck with GMail, using the web interface.
> I could setup POP3 to receive emails into my inbox (I did so
> for some other accounts), but I guess I could not setup IMAP
> for GMail.

Actually, GMail supports SMTP and IMAP; they just give scary
warnings about enabling them because they lack 2FA support.
git manpages for git-imap-send(1) and git-send-email(1)
document GMail support, even.

> > For a sysadmin, the beauty of NNTP is there's no per-client
> > state stored on the server itself.  It's all in the client.
> > Same for Atom feeds.
> 
> I could setup/run some daemons on my server, as long as
> the mails could eventually deliver to my inbox so that my
> regular workflow would stay the same. I don't know what
> could do that though.

I'm not sure if NNTP tools exist for NNTP=>IMAP or NNTP=>POP3;
yet.  But if I write an NNTP=>POP3 server, it'll more likely
be a part of yahns (Ruby) and not part of public-inbox (Perl5)
at this point; so maybe you would be willing host that for
other people, too :)

Re: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> "Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)" <godfat@godfat.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
>> > I guess another question is: do you use IMAP to read mail
>> > or webmail (or something else, POP3)?
>>
>> Oh, now I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately
>> I am currently stuck with GMail, using the web interface.
>> I could setup POP3 to receive emails into my inbox (I did so
>> for some other accounts), but I guess I could not setup IMAP
>> for GMail.
>
> Actually, GMail supports SMTP and IMAP; they just give scary
> warnings about enabling them because they lack 2FA support.
> git manpages for git-imap-send(1) and git-send-email(1)
> document GMail support, even.

I think GMail does support IMAP as a server, but not as a client?
I thought if you're setting up an IMAP server, I need to use an
IMAP client to fetch the mails? Or that's not the plan? Or I
misunderstand how IMAP works. I never really used it.

>> > For a sysadmin, the beauty of NNTP is there's no per-client
>> > state stored on the server itself.  It's all in the client.
>> > Same for Atom feeds.
>>
>> I could setup/run some daemons on my server, as long as
>> the mails could eventually deliver to my inbox so that my
>> regular workflow would stay the same. I don't know what
>> could do that though.
>
> I'm not sure if NNTP tools exist for NNTP=>IMAP or NNTP=>POP3;
> yet.  But if I write an NNTP=>POP3 server, it'll more likely
> be a part of yahns (Ruby) and not part of public-inbox (Perl5)
> at this point; so maybe you would be willing host that for
> other people, too :)

Yeah, sure, as long as I don't have to expand my existing server,
I am willing to host it and maintain it for other people.

Cheers,

Re: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Eric Wong]

"Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)" <godfat@godfat.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> > "Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)" <godfat@godfat.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> >> > I guess another question is: do you use IMAP to read mail
> >> > or webmail (or something else, POP3)?
> >>
> >> Oh, now I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately
> >> I am currently stuck with GMail, using the web interface.
> >> I could setup POP3 to receive emails into my inbox (I did so
> >> for some other accounts), but I guess I could not setup IMAP
> >> for GMail.
> >
> > Actually, GMail supports SMTP and IMAP; they just give scary
> > warnings about enabling them because they lack 2FA support.
> > git manpages for git-imap-send(1) and git-send-email(1)
> > document GMail support, even.
> 
> I think GMail does support IMAP as a server, but not as a client?
> I thought if you're setting up an IMAP server, I need to use an
> IMAP client to fetch the mails? Or that's not the plan? Or I
> misunderstand how IMAP works. I never really used it.

Yes; that's what I meant.  Sorry for the confusion...
nntp2imap would work like feed2imap currently does:

	The client (your machine) downloads from a server via
	(NNTP|RSS|Atom) and writes to any IMAP inbox, also as a
	client.  Nothing I've talked about involves either me or
	readers of this list (you included) running a new IMAP
	server :)

But yeah, AFAIK GMail allows you to use any IMAP client
(including feed2imap) to write mail to GMail servers;
which you can then read via webmail or another IMAP client.


I guess part where I confused you is GMail supports POP3 both as
a client (so they can read mail off your ISP/work/school mail
servers) and as a server (so you can also read all the messages
they can also read :)  But yeah, POP3 is rather dated since
most people prefer email accessible from multiple machines
and it's clumsy with POP3.

Maybe some janky arrows in ASCII art will help:

       >----SMTP ---->+
(you)  <----POP3----<-+        .----< POP3 ---< (work|ISP|school POP3)
  ^----<----webmail->-> GMail <
  +----<----IMAP---->-'        `-----< SMTP--< (rest of the world)
  ^
  |
  |`---< feed2imap --<- RSS/Atom feeds
  |
   `---< nntp2imap --<- NNTP

*shrug*  /me is sleepy :x

> > be a part of yahns (Ruby) and not part of public-inbox (Perl5)
> > at this point; so maybe you would be willing host that for
> > other people, too :)
> 
> Yeah, sure, as long as I don't have to expand my existing server,
> I am willing to host it and maintain it for other people.

Thanks for the feedback.  One of my goals is to keep Free Software
inexpensive to run :)

Re: [PATCH] README: add info about mailing list subscription

[Lin Jen-Shin (godfat)]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> Yes; that's what I meant.  Sorry for the confusion...
> nntp2imap would work like feed2imap currently does:
>
>         The client (your machine) downloads from a server via
>         (NNTP|RSS|Atom) and writes to any IMAP inbox, also as a
>         client.  Nothing I've talked about involves either me or
>         readers of this list (you included) running a new IMAP
>         server :)
>
> But yeah, AFAIK GMail allows you to use any IMAP client
> (including feed2imap) to write mail to GMail servers;
> which you can then read via webmail or another IMAP client.
>
>
> I guess part where I confused you is GMail supports POP3 both as
> a client (so they can read mail off your ISP/work/school mail
> servers) and as a server (so you can also read all the messages
> they can also read :)  But yeah, POP3 is rather dated since
> most people prefer email accessible from multiple machines
> and it's clumsy with POP3.

Oh, that's exactly where the confusion was coming from.
Indeed I am using POP3 to fetch mails from my other GMail
accounts into one inbox, so that I have backups. Thank you
for clarifying this.

> Maybe some janky arrows in ASCII art will help:
>
>        >----SMTP ---->+
> (you)  <----POP3----<-+        .----< POP3 ---< (work|ISP|school POP3)
>   ^----<----webmail->-> GMail <
>   +----<----IMAP---->-'        `-----< SMTP--< (rest of the world)
>   ^
>   |
>   |`---< feed2imap --<- RSS/Atom feeds
>   |
>    `---< nntp2imap --<- NNTP
>
> *shrug*  /me is sleepy :x

Nice art :P

So I guess the plan could be that I setup nntp2imap to read mails
via NNTP and write mails into my GMail inbox via IMAP. The only
thing I am a bit worried is that several years ago when I was still
using desktop email clients, setting up IMAP to read mails could
be deleting mails from my webmail inbox. It could be
misconfiguration, or it would not happen on GMail I don't know.
This is the main reason why I am still using POP3.

>> > be a part of yahns (Ruby) and not part of public-inbox (Perl5)
>> > at this point; so maybe you would be willing host that for
>> > other people, too :)
>>
>> Yeah, sure, as long as I don't have to expand my existing server,
>> I am willing to host it and maintain it for other people.
>
> Thanks for the feedback.  One of my goals is to keep Free Software
> inexpensive to run :)

Inexpensive therefore more accessible and easier to be distributed
and the system would be more robust :)